Friday, March 9, 2012

And then I took a social stance against the word "brat"

A debate started, based on this family's travel experience on a private board I (regretfully) am still a member of. The family was kicked off the plane, stranded and forced to pay out-of-pocket for their next flight after their 2-year old wouldn't stay in her seat. Problematic? Yes. But that was the least of the debate. I've included the comments, removed names but color coded to signify comments by repeat people. 

B- wow. what a holes
CC- That was stupid ... The 1st time my son got on a plane he did the same, was scared to death, kids do took him a good 30 minutes to calm down, glad I was not taken off the plane.
MC- Let someone try and throw me off my flight in may for my child. There kids. Not dogs
Z- I guess you should know if your kid will sit still or not...hence why we chose to bring my son's car seat on the plane as he understood you sit in your seat. The captain and flight attendants are there for people's safety. If those parents can't control a 2yo they've got a big problem and the other passengers are probably glad to get the brat off there.
ReaBall If you read the story, it sounds like the family had spent a lengthy time on planes and the child was probably just tired of sitting down. They had her seated and buckled prior to take off but the pilot decided to kick them off anyhow. 
Since the airline chose to remove them, leaving them effectively stranded, Jet Blue at the very least the should've been re-booked the family on a flight the following day at the airlines expense NOT the family's own, at which time the 2 year old more than likely would've sat just fine in her seat. 
To call a 2 year old a "brat" simply from a blurb in a paper seems unfair. My child acts up when tired too, but let me hear someone call him a brat when it happens! I'll momma bear the hell outta someone!! Unless someone has perfect control of their child, never raising a voice/hand/threat or using any other measure to keep said child in check, it's not fair to judge another parent, especially parents of toddlers/preschoolers. This article is my biggest fear about PCS'ing in May, because I can't control the flight times we're given and if it doesn't mesh with my son's schedule....well y'all may be reading about a family stranded in China! lol
N- wow what!? Z, are you calling a two year a brat bc they dont like to sit? Im sorry, you cant judge a two year old bc they dont want to be MADE to sit down. hell, adults have problems staying seated after so many hours! my child and i did space a last year and god forbid any mother ever sit behind the woman I had to sit behind. people need to understand that toddlers are toddlers, not every parent can control them at this age. my daughter listens very well for this age, but MAKING her sit down? in her eyes, you couldnt do anything worse, so for you to blatantly call a 2 year old a brat bc they are being, well TWO seems harsh. Do you have a child thats ever been two? and not everyone can bring car seats...i know i wanted to, but that wouldve made for too much luggage for us and it was just me and my two year old. Not trying to come across as mean or rude, but i do feel that that comment was a little harsh =)
CA- I wonder what will happen on wed when I'm flying home alone with a 4 year old and 11 month old that hates sitting and always wants to walk
Rx- This is sad. I don't expect everyone to like my kids, but I do expect them to be decent human beings and try to understand that my children go where I do, and I do the best I can to keep them calm and quiet. But traveling with kids is HARD. They do not WANT to sit for hours on end. They're not designed to. But given a few more minutes, even five, the airline could have accommodated this family. If I had been a flight attendant or fellow passenger, I would have busted out juice, crackers, played peekaboo with a damn blanket... I *have* done this for other families on planes. Kicking them off was ridiculous. =[ CA, I wish you a peaceful, uneventful flight home. Keep snacks on hand, and your iPhone charged if you have one. Good luck!
CA- Thank you!!! I hoping it be a good flight!! First time home in 2 years!
JS- Ok I see the traveling with kids is hard (I have 3 under age 9). But I can see where the pilot and other crew members are coming from. This happened before the plane even took off! How is the crew to know if this child would calm down after they took off? 
The article even states that the parents had her buckled but were still having to hold her down. What if they took off and the child continued to freak out and cause EVEN MORE drama in the air?
ReaBall ‎- (JS) I agree, but to not re-book them is outrageous! Hell, when airlines remove drunks, they let them sober up and book them on a later flight!
JS- I also doubt that if they plane was in the air already that they would have turned around and kicked them off.
ReaBall She may very well have fallen asleep once the plane was in the air....these things we'll never know.
Z- Exactly,  And sorry (N),but a parent should be able to control a 2 yr old and most people are going to need a carseat when they arrive so bringing it on the plane isn't that big of a deal. By age 2 a kid understands what a carseat is and they're meant to sit in it. I've traveled w/ a 1yr old on the plane, in my lap just fine and we came over here w/ a 4yo and he would've gotten his butt spanked if he pulled that crap.
ReaBall A 1 year old and 4 year old are different "breeds" than 2 year olds. And I haven't traveled with my 3 year old yet, but I'm surely not lugging a convertible carseat through the airport and trying to secure it in the small plane seats!
E- They should have had a carseat. If I were on that flight I would have been thankful for them removing the family. I do think they should have rebooked the family though...that part was wrong that they had to come out of pocket again for another flight........ ReaBall so what are you going to do when you land and need to get into a vehicle with no carseat? We PCS'd over here with a carseat and we will PCS out of here with a carseat. A carseat is NOT too much luggage in my opinion when it could mean my daughters safety. Hell we had a TON of bags when we came over here and while the carseat was a pain....we still brought it because my daughter knew that is where she had to sit. My daughter is now 4 and WILL NOT get into a car without her "safety net" aka her carseat. :-) JMO though :-)
**Clearly reading is not her strong suit...I never said I was traveling without a carseat. I simply said I'm not taking it through the airport with me. Common sense (not her strong suit??) would imply it's getting checked with luggage. **)
D- So the kids had been on a long flight and were tired of sitting? Maybe the kid has anxiety about taking off. Wow...
(the one and only!)K- I thought two year olds had to have a carseat? Either way to call someones child a brat is harsh. Kids are kids, they get overstimulated, tired, cranky just like we do and unless we all were there on the plane we have not right to judge the family and children.
N -to (Z)when your flying by yourself and have too much luggage already, then some ppl cant bring a carseat..i cant believe what everyone is saying here! I am all for spanking, but sometimes when you spank a two year old (ie my daughter) it backfires, makes her cry harder, longer. so sometimes spanking isnt the answer. my daughter listens extremely well for 2 but sitting down in a seat, she starts to freak out, feel confined. the newness of flying alone stressed her out. My daughter cried for almost an hour before she passed out and fell asleep on her first plane ride. its terrifying for them and you cant explain to them at their age WHY they have to sit for hours
ReaBall- We will have to check our carseat with the baggage, not gate side. We have 2 cats, our son and our carry ons. Our carseat will be with us at baggage claim, in a secure bag. I PCS'd over here with an infant and gate checked the stroller and carseat, and upon arrival we were told our stroller was "not found", we waited 30 minutes at the gate for our stroller!!
So no, I am not saying I would travel without a carseat, I am saying I am not going through the airport carrying unnecessary weight.
N-‎./' <- haha my 2 year decided to chip in lol
J- Hahahhahah ^^ that's awesome
Z- we got a handtruck (same one they have at the bx) folds up and hooked up the car seat to it w/ the harness straps (wasn't paying those prices for the travelmate). We strapped our 3 1/2 yr old in and he rode through the airports like a stroller--he loved it~
(the one and only!)K- Psh I flew with my 18 year old alone and she was an angel. Sat in her seat silently, didn't budge, and at one point had tea with the captain. Then I woke up and she was rubbing the man next to us on the arm and trying to wiggle under the seats for a game of hide and seek.
N- oh, and another thing. if its right before take off and you have to stay seated, you cant take your child to the bathroom for a smack on the have to do it right there in front of everyone and god forbid someone sees that and reports you!
H- You don't get an excuse when you are traveling with kids. They are your kids, you knew the trip was coming, and you should have been prepared. Take the damn car seat - your two year old can't be in a car without it, so why is a plane any different? People traveling with kids think they are somehow entitled to special treatment. I have to put up with it on the ground, screaming kids at the BX, Commissary, restuarants - I will not put up with it when LIVES are at risk and when I PAID to be on the flight just as much as you did and MY kid isn't being an ass.
E- Ok..someone explain to me why some can't bring a carseat? Some have said this and I am not understanding why..... I am sure no airline is going to deny someone flying with a carseat for a little one...if that is the case then they more than likely have to have the child sit on the parents lap.
H- I cannot believe that the airline, on the other hand, removed this family. There had to be an alternative to just leaving the family stranded. Kids have bad moments, but surely the child wouldn't have been that way the entire trip. I would have rescheduled the family for later in the day, given everyone a chance to relax.
ReaBall- I remove my kid when he starts acting out in public...but where would you like me to take him to on a plane? He gets overstimulated and we're only now starting to realize there may be more to it than him being 3.
Z- ‎(E), it's not they can't, they don't want to lug it.
E- Ok thats what I was thinking...LOL ;-) (**"LOL" my fucking ass you snotty bitch! So later on this same CUNT...yep I said it, says no one was personally attacking MY parenting, well yeah bitch actually 2 of you were, because I came out and said I will not be using my son's carseat on the plane and you both seemed to think it's out of laziness. When actually, you holier than thou lumberyard ass packed bitches, it's because I want to be able to walk and breath, not ride around the airport like some self-entitled, pretentious bag of fluff! Not to mention, Nixon won't "ride" in a stroller at 3.5. Why?? Because he has legs and enjoys using them!)
N- i am in no way supporting bad behavior! but children do have bad days, esp if its their first time flying. it scares them and they dont understand, which is bad combo.
CA- we traveled with my 2.5 year old here and she was amazing but when she was my son age yeah she cried and got upset... My son is lap baby.. so i know i be in for it... i am not to worried about my 4 year old she knows right and wrong... i am more nervous with my son. he loves to walk
H- I think the outrage here is not rescheduling the family.
CA- yes think they should of
Le- wow pretty harsh calling a 2 yr old a brat.... when i can here we had to put my 2 yr old car seat with the luggage as well like ReaBall, bc we were traveling with my 3 month old baby girl too and we had 4 carry ons, so i agree having the car seat was to much for us. now my kid behaved so well to for being their first time on the airplane, but from Tokyo to here, he was so freaking tired that he got winning and motion sickness too, but thanks goodness i had good flight attended helping me out, but there were some passenger giving us duty looks like a had a controlled over his motion sickness. there is some stuff that u can control over a 2 yr old, but being strap to an airplane where even adults get tired is not one of them, pros for the ones that can control their kids 100% at all times, as for the ones like myself that can't do that @ all times well, let us just PRAY that when we had to fly out again, God give my little girl and us the wisdom to deal with the situation and not get thrown out like those parents.
Z- this was a short flight, the parents scheduled it, so they knew if they had chosen nap time etc. there's a difference w/ a cranky kid on a 24hr trip than a 1-2 hr. and that kid couldn't even get settled to get the plane in the air. the oompa loompa song keeps going through my head..."who do you blame if your kid is a brat...the mother and the father..." :-)
ReaBall ‎"trying to fly back to Boston from a vacation in Turks and Caicos"
I suppose it's open to interpretation, but most people schedule flights all in one time frame, especially short ones after the longest leg of the trip are over.
Ks- Kinda thinking that the frame of mind that some parents have is why families get kicked off this island. Bad behavior is not a "phase". A child of two, three, four and five that gets away with tantrums turns into teens that mouth off and do as they please cause Mama and Daddy will excuse their behavior. Example: People speed cause they've gotten away with it either by not being caught or just getting warnings. Only a severe ticket will have them re-think breaking the law. If your child just gets warnings and excuses, they will never learn.
Z-it's official...sometimes parenting sucks. under 2 can be on your lap, so could they not hold the child? you don't lay an infant on the floor for take it would be safe to say this kid was inconsolable and the flight attendants and captain made the right choice--thinking of all the other people on the plane. It says they turned around which means they were probably on taxi would you all feel if you missed your connection flight b/c the plane was turned around due to a fussy kid? Of course the airlines charged them. It wasn't their fault.
Ks- That being said...they should have allowed the family to re-book once their child had calmed down.
ReaBall Wow....I bow to all you parents of superior parenting skills, whose children are so perfect they have no tantrums and mindlessly obey you all the time. Do you have books or offer classes so that we flawed parents might correct our wild and out-of-control children before it's too late for them to be allowed out in public or before they ruin your perfect children with their wild ways?!?!?
H- Ok - no reason to get offended since it wasn't any of OUR kids that got kicked off the plane.
R- We don't know if this was a special needs child he is only 2 and perhaps he hasn't been diagnosed, just because they look perfectly fine on the outside that doesn't mean that there isn't anything wrong with the kid . I try not to judge other's people parenting skills specially those that I don't even know because you never know if that is going to be you one day, getting kick off a plane because your kid is having an off day and you can't figure out right away was causing the fear or the behavior .
CC- Once my younger at the time around 23 months, scream like for 15 minutes on the plane, because I told her she could not have a soda, a old lady told to just give to hear so she would shut up... that was the best advice I ever got...
ReaBall ‎"What happens in the air stays in the air"'s the kids Vegas :)
H- The problem here us not the kid or patenting but the airline!
Ks- For anyone interested... To train up a child by Michael and debi pearl is a great book.
Z- you can't control EVERYTHING but none of us were on that plane and people are bashing the airlines. they had to consider ALL passengers. when coming here we put the kid in the car seat and our carry-ons were filled w/ books, crayons, dvds, juice boxes, snacks.
E- I dont know who was judging others parenting skills in was more or less the fact that people are sticking up for the parents of the screaming and kicking kid, rather than thinking that the flight attendant and pilot made the decision for the safety of the child....everyone is looking at the fact that they did it because the child was a brat or the parents couldn't control thier child, when if fact this is not the case. It was for the childs safety as well as everyone else on the planes safety. YES they were WRONG in every way for not rebooking them a flight and who knows maybe they will reimburse the people for flight...we will probably never know...the only fact that needs to be truely looked at is that they done what they done for the safety of the child and the other passengers onboard. ENd of story.
ReaBall Can we PLEASE stop calling this girl a "brat"???
It's disgusting that parents are referring to any child who is behaving like a child as a "brat"
E- Seriously??? I was referring back to all the other comments made on this act like YOU were the one on the plane that got kicked off ReaBall. Geesh. No one is criticising YOUR parenting skills.
ReaBall I still feel it's unnecessary to call a child a "brat" based on a blurb like this. Or really any child you see acting up in passing. It's a form of bullying and it's cruel. Would you walk by a child acting up and call him/her an "asshole"? It's a frame of mind, so feel free to have your opinions while I'll have mine :)
S- When we Pcsd her i had to fly here alone with my 7 month old. who was Surprislingly really good except for the usual times, feeding,t ake off landing.. and the lady behind me was so horrible about it.. "OMG that kid is crying AGAIN" and other comments then when we landed in Yakota she said "i hope that baby isnt going to okinawa" "OMG get me off this plane with these kids" (not talking about all the kids) i got off the plane went into the bathroom adn broke into tears, the other moms cleaning there kids asked what was wrong and who she was when i told them, I pointed her out and next thing i knew all the kids where playing over by where she was sitting... My son now LOVES planes and flying but DOES NOT like putting his seat belt on.. that is now when he crys and throws a fit.. it is hard to travel with kids...
CA- my 4 year old knows right and wrong but that doesnt mean she doesnt have fits in public... you cannot always control what happens. you never know what happens. if you can control your child where he or she is perfect all the time then more power to you. but i know all the kids i have seen and friends with non of them listen all the time. they are kids.
E- I think everyone is missing the whole point in general here. The airline did what they did for the safety of the child.....end of story. It has NOTHING to do with the fact of how one parents or anything along those lines. I am sure there are bits and peices that the article did not cover that cause us to not know the "entire" situation and why the parents and child were removed from the plane. Kids fly on planes every day and the airlines deal with all kinds of kids...including those that are afraid to fly and throw fits and cry, ect. I am sure there was more than just the child throwing a simple fit that caused the airline to turn around and remove the family....Just saying.
Z- no they aren't always perfect. but if you leave the movie theater, do you expect them to refund your tickets bc your kid is cranky? why should the airlines be any different?
(**If I leave by choice, no I don't expect to be refunded. I've done this twice with Nixon. However, if I'm asked to leave you bet your sweet ass I'm expecting a refund or at the very least coupons for another movie at a later date**)

CA- then they should of kicked the drunk guy off the plane that was sitting behind me for bad behavior... once again nobody is going to be right WE each think and have our own opinion. i am not right to some and i believe some of you aren't right..
   It continued for quite a bit after that, but the fact that grown women who HAVE children, were referring to a 2-year old as a "brat" repeatedly, made me sick! Why? Because as recently as last night, I've decided that word is offensive and cruel to young children. Kids get tired/cranky/antsy and sometimes parents don't know why. There are situations you just can't control. As a parent I do my fucking best, but Nixon still has bad days, but to tell me he's a brat is a slap in my face and his. It's a negative label. As a person who has had many a negative label tagged onto her, one is too many and even the most commonly used one can leave a lasting impression! 
   Children have plenty of time to wear labels, why tag them before they've even really developed a personality of their own? Being 2 and tired on a plane does not equal being a brat! Just like Nixon, being 3 and yelling as I remove him from a store (for yelling) when he's told no, is not being a brat! He's voicing his unhappiness in one of the only ways he knows how right now. And as a parent, I'm removing him from the situation, maybe not quietly enough for some people around us, but I'm not ignoring him and letting him continue to cause a disturbance. 
   Why are parents the biggest assholes to other parents and kids? K brought up a good point, to me in conversation. She said something about spanking, since some mothers felt that was the answer to this 2-year old's issue: how on earth is spanking a child who already doesn't want to sit down, going to MAKE her sit down any easier? Wouldn't that be counterproductive? In my opinion (and I admit I'm very anti-spanking), it would be. What child would want to sit on a sore behind if they didn't want to sit on a perfectly sound one??

   Look, people have their own battles. Some are fighting for gay marriage equality, and I support that. Some are fighting for better health care coverage and preventative health measures, and I understand and support those efforts too. I'm fighting to stop the negative labeling of children for simply being a child. Kids ages 2-4 go through so much changes on so many levels in such a short period of time, its no wonder they get overwhelmed and act out sometimes. But if they hear from adults, any adult, that they are being a "brat" they start to internalize that before they even understand what it means. It's like that one guy we all know, who just LOVES living up to the "asshole" label. Except this is a child who doesn't need a label. Just some patience and understanding. 
    So please, don't let me hear you call any child a "brat", okay?? I never realized it was a hot button issue of mine, until last night. But it really is!


  1. I find it amazing that people easily forget how hard it is/was to raise a toddler. It's also amazing that they forget what they said in earlier posts "oh why I never said it that way" Why yes you did jerkwad!

    Did you also see where someone suggested this child may be a "special needs" child?? I will put a special needs foot up your ass! Even if this child was special needs then the airline should have consented and made the child more comfortable! Ugh. People. Irritate. Me.

    We were at Chili's the other night and Owen behaved rather well, no screaming, yelling, or carrying on, just antsy in the pantsy and this guy kept staring at us. Well excuse me you hoity toity uppity jerk, I'm sorry my child didn't come out of my vagina already 18 years old and well behaved! Or maybe you forgot already??

    1. Exactly! Kids need time to stop being kids and start being adults, but it takes..oh I don't know 10-18 years for that to happen.

      kids get tired and i fail to see how spanking will fix the "problem". guess that's why my kid is the one seen yelling on the way out of the store when i say no....